Jerusalem Talmud Sanhedrin 8:1

משנה: בֵּן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה מֵאֵימָתַי נַעֲשֶׂה בֵן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה מִשֶּׁיָּבִיא שְׁתֵּי שְׂעָרוֹת וְעַד שֶׁיַּקִּיף זָקָן הַתַּחְתּוֹן וְלֹא הָעֶלְיוֹן אֶלָּא שֶׁדִּבְּרוּ חֲכָמִים בְּלָשׁוֹן נְקִייָה. שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר כִּי־יִֽהְיֶ֣ה לְאִ֗ישׁ בֵּ֚ן. בֵּן וְלֹא בַת. בֵּן וְלֹא אִישׁ. הַקָּטָן פָּטוּר שֶׁלֹּא בָא לִכְלָל הַמִּצְוֹת׃ MISHNAH: The deviant and rebellious son¹Who has to be stoned according to Sanhedrin 7:5:1" href="/Jerusalem_Talmud_Sanhedrin.7.5.1">Mishnah 7:5.. When can one become a deviant and rebellious son? From the moment he grows two [pubic] hairs to when he sports a beard, the lower, not the upper²If the pubic area is fully covered by hair., because the Sages used clean language³To avoid mentioning genitals.. For it is written: If a man have a [deviant and rebellious] son⁴Deuteronomy.21.18">Deut.21:18.. A son but not a daughter, a son but not a father⁵From the moment that a son is sexually mature, he can no longer be tried as deviant and rebellious son.. The underage [son] is not liable since he does not have any obligation⁶An underage child never has any obligation; his parents have the duty to educate him..

הלכה: בֵּן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה כול׳. רִבִּי זְעִירָא רִבִּי אַבָּהוּ רִבִּי יוֹסֵי בֶן חֲנִינָה בְשֵׁם רִבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן לָקִישׁ. כָּתוּב וְכִי־יָזִיד אִ֛ישׁ עַל־רֵעֵ֖הוּ לְהוֹרְגוֹ בְעָרְמָ֑ה. מֵאֵימָתַי הוּא נַעֲשֶׂה אִישׁ. מִשֶׁיָּזִיד. מֵאֵימָתַי הוּא מֵזִיד. מִשֶּׁתִּתְפַּשֵּׁט הַכַּף. מָשָׁל בָּשֵׁל הַזֶּרַע מִבִּפְנִים הִשְׁחִירָה הַקְּדֵירָה מִבַּחוּץ. אָמַר רִבִּי זְעִירָא. תַּנָּא רִבִּי שִׁילָא בַּר בִּינָא. כִּי־יִֽהְיֶ֣ה לְאִ֗ישׁ בֵּ֚ן. לֹא שֶׁיְּהֵא הַבֵּן אָב. מִכֵּיוָן שֶׁהוּא רָאוּי לָבוֹא עַל אִשָּׁה וּלְעַבְּרָהּ הֲיֵי דִי לֵיהּ אָב וְלֹא בֵן. וְאָֽמְרָה הַתּוֹרָה. בֵּן וְלֹא אָב. וְאַתְיָא כַּיי דָמַר רִבִּי יָסָא בְשֵׁם רִבִּי שַׁבְּתַי. כָּל־יָמָיו שֶׁלְּבֵן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה אֵינָן אֶלָּא שִׁשָּׁה חֳדָשִׁים בִּלְבַד. HALAKHAH: “The deviant and rebellious son,” etc. Rebbi Zeˋira, Rebbi Abbahu, Rebbi Yose ben Ḥanina in the name of Rebbi Simeon ben Laqish. It is written: If a man would concoct against his neighbor to kill him slyly⁷Exodus.21.14">Ex. 21:14. The argument is an almost untranslatable pun, identifying the two meanings of the root זוד “to plot, to be mischievous” and “to cook” (Sanhedrin.69a">Babli 69a). (Gesenius-Buhl also notes the two meanings for the root; modern Jewish lexicographers following Ben Jehudah prefer to derive the hapax “to cook” from a root נזד.). When does he become a man? When he concocts. When is he done cooking? When his palm⁸Palm as anatomic detail denotes the mons veneris of a woman (Yevamot 1:2:7" href="/Jerusalem_Talmud_Yevamot.1.2.7">Yebamot 1:2, Note 143); it is used here for the corresponding pubic area of the man. expands. A simile: If the seed is fully cooked inside, the pot becomes black on the outside. Rebbi Zeˋira said that Rebbi Shila bar Bina stated: If a man have a son, not that the son be a father. From the moment that he may come to a woman and make her pregnant, he is a potential father, not a son⁹While it is accepted that from the age of 9 years a male may be able to have full intercourse with a woman (Yevamot 3:10:2" href="/Jerusalem_Talmud_Yevamot.3.10.2">Yebamot 3:10 Note 143), he cannot be held responsible for his actions before he reaches age 13. Therefore, he can be a responsible father only at age 13. The Sanhedrin.68b">Babli (68b,Sanhedrin.69b">69b) and the Yevamot 10:7:8" href="/Jerusalem_Talmud_Yevamot.10.7.8">Yerushalmi (Yebamot 10:14, Notes 209–211; copied Kiddushin 1:2:2-33" href="/Jerusalem_Talmud_Kiddushin.1.2.2-33">Qiddušin 1:2 59c l. 26, p. 73) recognize the fact that an underage male may become a father. The son born to an underage father can never become deviant and rebellious since he is not the son of a man as required by the verse.. But the Torah said, a son, not a father. It parallels what Rebbi Yasa said in the name of Rebbi Sabbatai: The entire period of a “deviant and rebellious son” is only six months¹⁰Since everywhere in talmudic literature the period between onset of female puberty and full feminine development is taken to be six months, the same is asserted here for the male. In the Sanhedrin.69a">Babli, 69a, R. Sabbatai determines this period as three months..

אָמַר רִבִּי יָסָא. כָּל־אִילֵּין מִילַּייָא לָא מִסְתַּבְּרִין דְּלָא חִילּוּפִין. תַּנֵּי. תֵּדַע לָךְ שֶׁהוּא כֵן. מִי הָיָה בְדִין שֶׁיְּהֵא חַייָב הַבֵּן אוֹ הַבַּת. הֲוֵי אוֹמֵר. הַבַּת. וּפָֽטְרָה הַתּוֹרָה אֶת הַבַּת וְחִייְבָה אֶת הַבֵּן. מִי הָיָה בְדִין שֶׁיְּהֵא חַייָב קָטוֹן אוֹ גָדוֹל. הֲוֵי אוֹמֵר. גָּדוֹל. פָּֽטְרָה הַתּוֹרָה אֶת הַגָּדוֹל וְחִייְבָה אֶת הַקָּטָן. מִי הָיָה בְדִין שֶׁיְּהֵא חַייָב הַגּוֹנֵב מִשֶׁלַּאֲחֵרִים אוֹ הַגּוֹנֵב מִשֶׁלְּאָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ. הֲוֵי אוֹמֵר. הַגּוֹנֵב מִשֶׁלַּאֲחֵרִים. פָּֽטְרָה הַתּוֹרָה הַגּוֹנֵב מִשֶׁלַּאֲחֵרִים וְחִייְבָה הַגּוֹנֵב מִשֶׁלְּאָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ. לְלַמְּדָךְ שֶׁכּוּלָּן אֵינָן אֶלָּא בִגְזֵירַת מֶלֶךְ. Rebbi Yasa said, all these rules would be reasonable if they were the opposite. It was stated: You should know that this is the case. Who according to reason should be guilty, son or daughter? One would say, a daughter¹¹Who in her youth has to be obedient to her parents and later in life to her husband.. But the Torah freed the daughter and declared the son guilty¹²As stated in the Mishnah.. Who according to reason should be guilty, the younger or the older? One would say, the older. But the Torah freed the older and declared the younger guilty¹²As stated in the Mishnah.. Who according to reason should be guilty, one who steals from others or one who steals from father or mother? One would say, one who steals from others. But the Torah freed the one who steals from others and declared the one who steals from father or mother guilty¹³Sanhedrin 8:5:1" href="/Jerusalem_Talmud_Sanhedrin.8.5.1">Mishnah 5.. To teach that all of these [rules] are only the King’s decisions¹⁴Even though this seems to contradict Sanhedrin 8:7:2-3" href="/Jerusalem_Talmud_Sanhedrin.8.7.2-3">Halakhah 7..